Who is the all time NBA best, or who would you draft? 11 NBA championship or 6 NBA championships?

Who would you pick as your franchise player?

Player 1

2 consecutive NCAA basketball championships as the team's superstar including a record, at the time, 55 staight wins for a NCAA basketball team as the team's superstar

1 Gold Medal as Captain of the USA Olympics basketball team

11 NBA rings on a NBA team that had never been in the

1 Most Outstanding Player in the NCAA Final Four basketball championships

5 NBA MVP awards (in primes of most of the current Top 50 NBA players in NBA history)

4 NBA rebounding championships (in prime of Chamberlain)

14 major championships in 14 years (2 NCAA titles, 1 Gold, 11 NBA rings)

Possibly the best jumper in NBA history, at a minimum at least one of the top jumpers in NBA history including players of the 21st century.

The only person to win a NCAA title, a Gold, and a NBA title all within one year.

One of only two people to win consecutive NCAA titles their last two years incollegeand win a NBA title their rookie year

Who is the all time NBA best, or who would you draft? 11 NBA championship or 6 NBA championships?nba hall of fame

I'm guessing that you're making the argument of Bill Russell over Michael Jordan.

Michael Jordan was amazing but Bill Russell was just so much better in so many ways. He was an awesome player.

Not many around here ever saw Bill Russell play so people tend to go with what's familiar.

Who is the all time NBA best, or who would you draft? 11 NBA championship or 6 NBA championships?nba draft order ,nba teams

No doubt MJ was great, but Bill Russell had 5 NBA rings in the Russell's first 5 1/2 years in the NBA (Russell missed half of the NBA season which started earlier in that era to win a Gold at the Olympics)while it took Jordan 6 years in the NBA to even win his first NBA ring. Report It


I like how you mentioned Russells rebounding titles, with no mention of Jordans scoring titles. Made mention of Russells "top jumper" while saying nothing about the fact that Jordan was by far a better shooter. Oh and Jordan did not have 5 Hall of Famers on his young Bulls teams. Oh, and Defensive player of the year awards. Oh, and the leader of the Dream team....only the best collection of talent ever.

Any argument can be made with only a slice of the information. Funny you forgot to metion all that.
Myth1: Russell only became successful because he played on great teams.

The Celtics NEVER went to the NBA Finals before Russell even with Hall Of Famers like Auerbach, Macauley, Cousy, Sharman, and Ramsey.

Back in the '62 season, Russell took himself out for 4 games and the Celtics lost 4 straight games even with Red Auerbach, Cousy, Sharman, the Joneses, Ramsey and other HoF's.

Back in '69, Russell took himself out for 5 games because of an injury and the Celtics lost 5 straight even with HoF's Sam Jones, Havlicek, Satch Sanders, and Bailey Howell.

The instances that i mentioned are the two worst losing streaks of the Russell-era Celtics. The latter is the worst losing streak of the Celtics since Red Auerbach took over the helm.

When Russell retired after the '69 season, the Celtics went down from 48 wins to 34 and they MISSED the Playoffs even with HoF's such as Havlicek, Sanders, Jo Jo White and Howell. A huge 14 game drop (when Jordan "retired" in '94 the Bulls went "down" from 57 wins to 55. A pitiful 2 game drop. And the Bulls played Game 7 with the Knicks on the Second Round).

And the modest 48 wins that the Celtics garnered during the '69 season is the lowest number of wins that the Celts have during the Russell -era and occured only because Russell spent a lot of time in the injured list and/or recovering.

The Celtic dynasty started with Bill Russell.

How come Russell lead a small, insignificant team like USF , with no gymnasium of its own to back to back NCAA championship and a 55 game winninig streak?

How come Jordan COULD NOT lead a powerhouse UNC team with greatcollegeteammates and under a great coach to the Final Four without James Worthy?

Myth 2: Russell played in a WEAK era of 8-10 teams and their Playoff series is less grueling.

First off, this breaks one of the cardinal rules in recognizing greatness. You judge greatness within its era. Its like saying Lennox Lewis is GREATER than Joe Louis. Nevermind that the Brown Bomber is Heavyweight champion for 12 years and dispatching 25 challengers, Lennox Lewis is heavier and better CONDITIONED than that oldie and that trumps whatever accomplishment Louis has achieved.

Give Joe Louis modern training and conditioning and he would kill any of today's heavyweight boxers. On the same token, give the any of the top 60's or 70's NBA teams all the modern training and conditioning that most modern teams take for granted and they would still be as dominating today as they were during their era.

Could you imagine just how dominating would a smart and athletic guy with a 48+ vertical leap and a 7'4" wingspan with the speed, timing, stamina and body coordination of a track athlete like Russell would be today if he receive MODERN WEIGHT TRAINING like most modern NBA players do?

During his time, he was able to hold his own against 7'0" 290lbs Goliaths like Clyde Lovellete and Wilt Chamberlain (And Wilt is far, far more athletic than your average 7'0", 290lbs centers today. How many 7'0", 290lbs centers today could jump from the free throw line again? How many 7'0", 290lbs centers could block a Kareem skyhook at age 34?).

And also Russell thrive in the "bush league" era of the NBA where coaches and player attack fans and vice-versa quite frequently, where referees allow all sort of infractions to go unnoticed, where elbows and shoves are used to gain position, where opposing players punch you or trip whenever you do showboating moves like dunks etc.; he wont have any problem of taking on the kind of "pounding" that he would receive in today's hand check free era. He already played and survived Playoff/Finals series with a hemorrhaging eyeball, a broken ankle, strained tendons etc. at a time when there was NO team physician or trainer to mend injuries.

Second, the NBA teams in those era are loaded with talent because the NCAA and NIT talent pool is only shared by 8-10 teams. What is the 24th pick of the 1st round today would already be the 8th pick of the 3rd round in the 60's. Only the elite of the elitecollegeplayers get to play in the NBA.

The short number of teams means that the 8-9 times (to fill the 81 game schedule) they faced a particular team in a season becomes a grueling fight of ATTRITION as each team scouts and learns the opposing team's strengths and weakness and tries to neutralize or exploit them, and at the same time make adjustments of their own for the next game. This is a two way street. You pinpoint your opponents weakness today, rest assured that they will do something about it for the next game and they would also get an idea of how to defeat you for the next game and you better do something about it and you'd be doing it 8-9 times a season. And we're still not yet on the Playoffs!

Third, the difficulty of the Playoffs is based on the QUALITY of the teams not on the QUANTITY of teams. Even if there was an 8 team Playoff seed and 3 rounds before going to the Finals in Russell's time, it wouldnt matter. Only the best and the most consistent teams would survive. The Celtics and Chamberlain's team would still meet in the ECF and the winner would face West and Baylor's LA. Adding more teams in the Playoffs would just pad the number of victories for the Celtics.

Hey in Lennox Lewis time there are 3 world championship belts (at least), does that mean he faced tougher competition than in Joe Louis' -era where there is only one championship belt? [Substitute Ali, Charles, or Marciano for Louis and you get the picture.]

Myth 3: Russell or Auerbach or [Insert another NBA superstar or personality] so and so said Jordan is the BEST.

Quote mining means jack sh!t. Like i said before, if your best defense for Jordan's claim as the best/greatest is to QUOTE MINE from other greats who are just BEING POLITE especially when talking about their fellow greats , it just means you cant present any meaningful argument.

Hey did you guys also know that Red Auerbach also called Bill, Wilt, Bird and Oscar as the Greatest basketball player he has ever seen?

Did you guys know that Russ removes himself from the running whenever the GOAT question flares up?

Myth4: Jordan or Wilt or anybody would win 11 or more championship if he was with the 60's Celtics.

First off, this is already debunked somewhat with Myth1. Even with HoF's on the team, the Celtics could NOT WIN without Russell.

Second, AirJudden on the link below did a commendable job as to why Wilt wouldnt be able to replicate Russell's string of success given the same situation.

Third, Jordan will not fit in the 60's Celtics and just f*ck the team chemistry that made it possible for them to win .

The Celtics live and die with the transition game (ie. fast break). Jordan want to be the center of the team's offense. Screw the open man!

The Celtics dont give a sh!t about their offensive stats, in fact none of them placed in the top 10 scoring list. Jordan want to be the center of the team's offense.

Red Auerbach dont want ballhogs, stathogs, and gloryhounds on his team and weeds them out when selecting Celtic players. Jordan want to be the center of the team's offense.

Last but not the least, there is NO ONE in the NBA who could play 40mins/game and at the same time coach his team to back to back championships without any help from assistant coaches like Bill Russell did. Certainly not Wilt or Jordan. The closest would be Alex Hannum but Hannum hardly played any minutes in a game and is often one of the worst player on his team.

Judden said it best. If self-seeking, ballhogging, stat boys, with a few titles are your thing, then guys like Jordan and Kobe Bryant (and Wilt) are your guys. If you want your team to win the title year after year after year -- and who doesn't -- then Russell is your guy.

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This is silly. The team's in the 60's send scouts to watch at the stands against opposing teams during the preseason, season and the Playoffs (w/c current teams still do only with videotapes) AND AT THE SAME TIME play each other 8-9 TIMES a season which is a far better info-gathering tool for the Playoffs than simple scouting. What do you mean by the term that the NBA teams during Russell's time "dont need scouting"? No serious team let alone a pro-NBA team is ever complacent enough on its chances of winning that they dont need to review their opposing team's performance when they got the chance. Even high school JV's need and do scouting.

At any rate, the number and impact of international players during Jordan's time to the NBA talent pool is still small (this excludes the likes of Hakeem and Dikembe who are products of American colleges and are thus part of the NCAA talent pool) not to mention most of them receive few playing time to display their skills. The international players only got their due and become more mainstream post-Jordan (f*ck, im giving Kobe, Lebron, and Shaq jockers ammo).

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Please Jerry West himself personally went to Boston to scout the Celtics and iirc, Wilt's Philadelphia Warriors during the 1962 Divisional Finals between the two teams since LA is already through the Finals. And the Lakers organization was glued to the 1968 Playoff series between Boston and Philly (cheering for the Celtics because theyre more afraid of the 76ers).

But really i think the problem here is that we have a different notion when we mean by the term "scouting".

Scouting as in reviewing your opponents performance occurs every time. Sometimes its done the obvious way by using a scout in the stands (or a videotape) like i mentioned above or more conveniently by playing them. Like i somewhat mentioned before, playing your opponents 8-9 times a season like they do in the 60's is a much better info-gathering/ scouting tool than playing your opponent 2-4 times a season and augmenting it with videotape reels like they do today. The more you play your opponent in a season, the better prepared your team is for that opponent in the Playoffs, the next season and so forth.

First off, iirc John Wooden did some scouting himself in when Bill Russell and the USF Dons won the Western Regionals in 1955(?). Thats when he said that Russell is the best defensive player he's ever seen.

Second, i dont remember Wooden saying something that "he dont scout his opponents". Im pretty sure that he like Auerbach who similarly said that "im not concerned about what the opposing team is gonna do, im more concerned on what WE are going to do", understood the importance of scouting/reviewing the performance of the opposing team. What both coaches however stress is the importance of IMPOSING your gameplan on the game. Let the opposing team make the difficult adjustments to your style of play. Knowing YOUR own game is better than knowing your opponents game but its better to have BOTH. Hell if Auerbach didnt review the 76ers performance during the 1965 season(?), he wouldnt have come up with the brilliant plan of beating them which precludes focusing the Celtics defensive energy on rookie Billy Cunningham who was on a hot streak instead of traditional offensive options like Wilt and Hal Greer.

As for the internationals, well id rather have a fundamentally sound international player who knows how to draw smart fouls (flopping) than an all flash, no substance high school player. Anyway, unless you or any Jordan jocker still refuse to recognize greatness and accomplishments in era and still want to use the DESPERATION argument that "Russ, Wilt etc. played in a WEAK era" just to prove that Jordan is better than they are, we would all be too happy to point out that Jordan played in an expansion plagued 90's era that diluted the talent pool. Not even the coming of the few international players in the 90's could compensate for that. In 1995, there were 3 Internationals drafted, since 1990 iirc there were 4 expansion teams added; a mere drop in the NBA talent pool.
I'd take player 2.

If you put russell on a bad chicago team with no tradition

of winning he would not have as many titles.

If you put Jordan on the Celtics with the tradition of winning

he would have more titles than Russell.

If you don't agree, Red Auerbach said Jordan was the

best player he had ever seen. And Russell himself

said Jordan was the greatest of all time.

Barkley never won a title but he was better than Robert

Horry which has 7.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...

AlphaKOOK

3 out of 5 years prior to Russell Celtics where in the

conference finals. Chicago was not even in the playoffs

for as long as anyone can remember before Jordan

got there.

Also since you bring it up, in Russells Days you have to

win two series to get to the finals, in the Jordan ERA

you have to win 3 series to get to the finals..more teams!

So Russell won his titles the same way UCLA and John

Wooden won his titles, the NCAA had 16 teams not 64

when UCLA won their what ever number in a row.

So in fact number of titles Russell has would be at least

half that number because there would be 3 hurdles to

get by not 2 to be in the finals. THat and they played best

of 3 or 5 not 7.

AROOOOOO 2 EZ!!!!!!!

your tradition is to cheer for Kobe

which means your tradition is to be out in the 1st round!

now stop being a Kobe Jocker!
I'd draft Bill Russell instead of MJ. Russell is the Dean of Defense, and as the old sports adage goes "Offense wins games, and defense wins championships." Oh and contrary to popualr belief MJ is not the greatest player of all-time, he's the third greatest player of all-time.
Michael Jordan. Why do I believe Michael Jordan is the better choice over Bill Russell if you have to draft them all over again in this era? Simple, Achievements aside you have to look on physical appearance first.

Bill is slim player who relies deeply in his athleticism to get rebounds, block shots, and basically get to the rim. At 6’9, he would be too undersized for a center and without a built like Ben Wallace I wonder if he’ll be able to finish 13 seasons of hard pounding in the NBA in this era. With the Shaquilles, Garnetts, Rasheeds, Mutombos, Mournings and Ben Wallaces patrolling the lane I wonder if he can scoop in at least 10 points today. Russell don’t have the speed of Olajuwon’s feet and the strength of Shaquille O’ Neal. Having said Olajuwon, The ‘Dream’ is the first player to compile two quadruple double games meaning he’s the most complete center to ever play the game, that while playing against many good if not great Big Men in the modern day era (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaq, Ewing. David Robinson, Dikembe Mutombo, Robert Parrish, Bill Laimbeer).

And there is a notion raised here that having 8 teams means tougher competition, hate to say this but I believe it’s not the truth. Let’s say I’m a team scout and you tell me to scout all the teams which will I find easier to scout? I’ll site an example: The series between Detroit and San Antonio. It was in 2004 if your short term memories fail you again. That series is a series of adjustments knowing your opposition better means being prepared for them in your next game. In an eight team league you could scout your oppositions better thus knowing how to defeat them. With others raising Russell being a defensive dynamo? Put Shaq back in the 60’s and maybe he’ll score 200 points! Plus competition now is much tougher with the influx of great international players modern day players are more skilled than ever!

Kobe jockers say that 90’s NBA is a watered down league. But I’m just wondering why better teams never became champions? Hmmm. Take 90’s New York for instance. They are a complete team with a complete game why haven’t they become champions? Take the Lakers of 1996-1997 They had Shaq, Kobe, Jones and Van Excel. Why didn’t they make it to the championship? Maybe because 90’s weren’t so watered down after all? Jordan as Russell points out in one interview is the best example of a Student of Basketball he learned at in every situation he was in and improving everytime he meets those same conditions.

I pity Bill for being the scapegoat of Kobe jockers when they can’t defend Kobe as the greatest, They downplayed Shaq’s role and glorified Kobe’s exploits in blow-up proportions; Sports Illustrated asked Shaq why he didn’t wear no. 34 in Miami, his reply is simple and meaningful: "...No. 34 got stabbed in the back in Los Angeles" and as is today by Kobe jockers who wouldn’t admit that Shaq was the one who carried LA through their champion years. Russell was the best in his era no doubt but in this modern day basketball? Doubt it really. Jordan proved that he could play against these youngsters even if that means playing while he was already 40 years old. Even scoring the first 40 points of 40 year old player. Great question!!

Additonal: Yes exactly! 8 teams need no scouting because teams see each other so often! Many of today's Big men sport a bulky physique so that they could be able to absorb the pounding they get. But even that didn't prevent them from getting injured (Tim Duncan, Ben Wallace, Shaquille O' Neal, Kenyon Martin, Amare Stoudomire, Dirk Nowitzki) so what will prevent Bill from joining the all-star injured list of today? And when I said speed of Olajuwon's feet I meant Hakeem's unique way of changing phases with rapid foot steps to get away from defenders. take this for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GROmHUgIu...

I know Bill was fast simply by noting that Boston of the yesteryears played run-and-gun offense (as most teams does way back then). Olajuwon is unique in terms of finesse in game plus his sweet hook shot that literally tore defenses off... Thanks for the added tidbits about Russell... : )

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My Kill: Ahahahahahaha! Why are you so angry?

Quoting score 1952's explanation: "As far as scouting other teams, if you read Russell's autobiography as Russell played in the era of 8 team or 10 team or 12 team NBA leagues, Russell stated that there was no reason to scout as the teams played so often that it was all a matter of execution and whomever executed the best won. A different example was that UCLA's John Wooden, the most successfulcollegecoach ever, did not scout his opponents preferring to concentrate on his own players." Then following your line of "The international players only got their due and become more mainstream post-Jordan..." makes me come up with a conclusion is this league we are watching the real "watered-down league" Kobe jockers spoke of? Imagine Americans failing at the Olympics and the World Championships.... The proliferation of floppers over rigid defense of the 60's-90's NBA.... Yeah... Signs of impending apocalypse indeed.
Very different eras - Russell and Celtics vs MJ and Bulls.

Because of knowing what I know about the eras (put Russell and the Celtics in the age of free agency) I take MJ
I don't need numbers to tell me that Michael Jordan was the greatest of all time.
The guy with the six rings and since you're talking about MJ he didn't just win six rings he changed the game. You know how they say no one man is bigger than the game well he is. When kobe, D-Wade, Lebron, T-Mac, A-I or anyone in the league is going through their little moment when their not missing you know what they say(he looks like Jordan) You know what they call the 4th quarter (Jordan TIME) he's not a great player who played the game he's the greatest player to ever play the game!!!!! Don't you forget that!!!!!
Could I take Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Magic Johnson instead. I just think that Jordan is over-rated as a chemistry guy (one reason why it took so long for his team to develop into a contender and Russell was not a very efficient scorer and won partly because he had a lot of scorers around him. Give Kareem a good PG (or even L. Allen or W. Jones) a washed up wing player or a inexperienced SF ; or Magic a solid but past his prime center and a couple of active wings and they produce immideatly in a very tough league. We will never know what Russell could have managed with out a lot of help, we know how long it took Jordan to develop into an NBA winner. Both Russell and Jordan played in a league that favored them as did Magic, the same could not be said for Kareem or Wilt. I might take Cousey over Russell. I can't say I know how things would work out but I would take a chance and put Chamberlin or Abdul-Jabbar in Russells place with the Celtics and expect at least one 75 win season.
Michael Jordan

You can throw out all sorts of numbers, but in the end, he's the greatest NBA player of all time.
I don't really know why we would compare Michael Jordan to Bill Russell:

1. They played in different eras. 1960's Russell played in an era with only eight teams... Jordan spent his time playing with his team against a league that continues to have expansion teams until it grew to 29 teams. Siting this you can see that if you have one great player there is a very good chance that your team would dominate not to mention that Boston had a composition of Hall-of-Fame kind of players (I know you know all of them). The level of competition is very, very different my friend...

2. They played different positions. Bill Russell is a center and Jordan is a guard? What's the difference? Go figure. Basketball is what other's says "a big man's sport" thus the Bulls achievements quashes the term since the team never really had a dominant Big man since Artis "A-Train" Gilmore. It's hard enough winning with a good big man how about not having one?

To answer your question directly: No I won't pick Bill Russell if given a chance to draft him... Simply because he would give up a lot of size to the opposition (as pointed by one answerer above Bill stands 6'9) And with the built Bill Russell have I don't think he would be able to compete with all the big bodied players of today (try Yao Ming)... He would be good but never great in this era. (probably would remind you of a Marcus Camby in terms of built and ravageness on the blocks and boards).

I'd better stick with a Jordan who played against the best players of the modern era, thus improving his game more and becoming one of the most intelligent players of the game... Even Bill Russell himself gives a nod at this:

Bill Russell on Michael Jordan: “he has this-it's like a computer in his head that he knows all of his MULTIPLE SKILLS, which ones he uses, and when to use them, to WIN the game, because you see the thing is what makes him a great player is his sense of priority, what is important.”

He further more added that : “what makes him great is his attitude. I think that after I've watched him play I guess hundreds of times since he was a kid, and the ENTHUSIASM and the WILL to win has been there all the time, and what I like about him is that even today in the regular season games he shows up to play just like he played when he was in high school or in college, just as hard, with just as much DEDICATION, and with just as much intensity.”

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/sports/ja...

Hope this helps.

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Alpha wolf I don't know why your bashing me... Does your hate for Jordan run that deep? You can't win at arguments and that is why you are bashing others opinions? Well with the exeption of Wilt could you point out who else stands in the way of that great Boston Celtic team? Nobody because they only have eight teams! With a team composed of Bill Sharman, Bob Cousy, Tom Heinsohn, Bill Russell, Sam Jones, K.C. Jones how could you go wrong? You are calling Pippen the best forward of Jordan's era? I don't think so... What about Kemp, Malone, Barkley aren't they forwards as well? Proved you wrong again. Well best of luck on your presumption.

Additional: Now here comes the 'wolf accomplice, Let's see Boston had Cousy and Sharman as their main guys. As the Official Boston Celtics Website puts it: Instant Offense but no Defense, They were winning but can't get through to the Finals because they are lacking in one major facet in their game and that is DEFENSE. Russell plugged that hole, so you can say that Auerbach, Boston's architect had been long looking for such a player. If Ben Wallace was available then maybe Red would have picked him, no? lol. The Bulls are a struggling team a team that would seldom go to the play-offs before the "Air" arrives thus plugging MAJOR hole in their team. And what hole is that? Confidence. 1994's Pippen-led Bulls was a strong team. In fact they are defending champions. What does that team lack? Confidence. They could have easily won it all again but what was lacking? Confidence. Jordan was the franchise's cornerstone and by picking up the pieces of the puzzle the Bulls won their first taste of honey in NBA landia.

As I said with the great team like Bill's how can you go wrong? Against a team with two HOF's how can they defend a team with no vulnerability? Tell me now....

Hoopfan: Before Kemp became a drug fiend addict he was HOF caliber in Seattle... Even Malone had trouble stopping him (circa 1996 Western Conference Finals?)... Time to read history again....
The problem with this is that when Bill Russel was in the league he played with people smaller than he was. SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than he was. So he was so dominating. The league was nowhere near as competitive.

He couldn't score by himself, he was just a defensive force. Also the boston celtics had the best starting 5 in the league for 10 straight years so it wasn't just him.

sorry guy no dice.
Michael Jordan
Sometimes, the ignorance on here is mind-boggling.

That "all-star team" that Russell supposedly joined never even went to the NBA finals until Russell came on board, so "iknowballs", your argument carries no weight whatsoever.

And Russell was usually the 3rd or 4th option on offense. His job was to rebound and defend, which he did better than anybody in history. He was more than happy to sacrifice points in order to win championships, unlike Jordan.

And all throughout his career, these "all star" players retired, but the Celtics kept on winning titles. Russell was the only constant. And as soon as Russell retires, the Celtics collapse.

And the fact that there were only 8 teams back then meant that the teams were better and deeper then when Jordan played. Some of the teams Russell had to face night in and night out:

St Louis: 4 HOFer's including 6'9" Bob Petit

LA Lakers: HOFer's West, Baylor, and later 7'1" Wilt Chamberlain

Cincinnati: HOFer's Oscar Robertson, 6'8" Jerry Lucas

Philly 76ers: Wilt, Hal Greer, 6'9" Luke Jackson, Billy Cinningham

HOFer's: Walt Bellamy, and Nate Thurmond, both 6'11", Willis Reed; 6'10", Wes Unseld; 6'7", Zelmo Beatty; 6'9"

To say that Jordan played against better competition is ludicrous. The fact that there were fewer teams meant that Russell had to play against these players every night. He and Wilt usually faced off 12-13 times a year, not including playoffs.

Can you imagine if Jordan had to play Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, the 80's Pistons, Dr. J's Sixers 12 times a year?

Michael Jordan didn't start winning championships until the talent from the 80's drizzled off, and the league expanded. And he did have good players around him, he just doesn't have the ability to make players around him better.

And as far as his mythical "will to win"....where was it in his 2nd and 3rd year in college....when he couldn't even get his TarHeels to the Final Four, despite being loaded with NBA talent. See, even when he does have players around him, his "will to win" vanishes...lol

There was no player in history that had a greater "will to win" than Bill Russell. Eleven titles in thirteen seasons, plus 2 NCAA titles....you'd have to be an idiot to choose Jordan over Russell....unless maybe you were starting a shoe company.

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(F)ockers....Red Auerbach: " if I was starting a team today, and I could pick one player, the one player I would choose, and the greatest ever would be Larry Bird"

And the only reason the Bulls made the playoffs is because the league decided to go from 8 playoff teams to 16. Jordan's Bulls made the playoffs his first 3 years with losing records, and were quickly eliminated.

"Darth Vader"....you make absolutely no sense. Russell had to face Wilt Chamberlain many, many times throughout his career....I don't think he'd have any trouble against the centers of today.

SHAWN KEMP????..........LMAO........yeah if growling into the camera is your criteria of a great forward....jeeshhhh!!!!

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No, "Darth Vader".....what the 1994 Bulls lacked was a Jordan jocking referee, that should have put his whistle away in the final seconds of a playoff game.

You are 100% correct about the Celtics however. That team, despite all those great players, would not have won a title without Russell's defense and presence in the middle.
Hey! Clayfu!...Bill Russell was'nt "SIGNIFICANTLY Taller"..he was 6'9"..he played against the greatest athlete in Basketball History!!!!!!....Wilt Chamberlain!.....by your theory!..Manute Bol..or Yao Ming should Dominate!...Yao Ming is 6" taller then Shaq!!!!!!!!..he aint leading his team to 14 major Titles!!!!.......anyways..who did MJ play against...Craig Ehlo?..lol....Mj could never win in the 80's...against good teams!..he could only win in the watered down 90's..against teams spread thin through Expansion!!!.....

MJ vs Magic in 1991 when 3 of the starting 5 of the Lakers were hurt.....game 1 MJ gaurded Magic and Magic lit him up!....Lakers won!...Phil decided to switch Pippen on Magic!....Bulls win the next four with Pippen as the main defensive threat!.......

MJ vs Blazers and jerome Kersey..lol.... in 1992 ..(phil jackson says this team is the best of the Bulls championship teams)..Pippen is the facilitator of the offense in the Finals....Pippen averages MORE rebounds and assists then Jordan!..all Jordan does is Ballhog!!!!!....Bulls win!..Phil Himself says Pippen is better at facilitating the offense then jordan!....

1993..league is so watered down that the Suns make it to the Finals?????.......league is so watered down that Oliver miller makes the team????

1994 MJ retires becuz he wants to "spend time with his family"...Bulls go from 57 - 25 with Jordan...to 55 - 27 without Jordan.......Pippen leads the team in every catagory(MJ never did that)...the Bulls come within 1 bad call of winning another chip!!!.....By the way!..Mj never had a winning season without Pippen!..Mj only won 1 playoff game without pippen!........Pippen did a better job of leading the Bulls without Jordan!..then Jordan did without Pippen!..it's a fact!

Pippen =5 winning seasons without Jordan!..went deep in the playoffs numerous times!

Jordan = 5 losing seasons without Pippen........only 1 playoff win.......

face it people..you've been bamboozeled in order to sell shoes!.............sad!

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Darth haven..your theory is garbage!...Bill played 7'1" Wilt chamberlain!!!..and won!...Bill Russell is the greatest defensive player ever!...along with his defense he scored 15 - 18 ppg!...he could have scored more if he wanted to but he did whatever it meant to WIN!...he played when the league had 14 teams also and WON!!!! Championship's......and less teams mean more Talent per team!!!!...he never had a night off!..(like Jordan did)..Boston never won Before Bill arrived!!!..when he retired they fell to the basement of the NBA!!!.....when jordan retired the Bulls only dropped 2 games and still were contenders!....Russell won 5 Titles without Bob Cousy!..Mj never had a winning season without his fellow Top 50 player Pippen next to him!!!!....

Jordan had Pippen the best Forward in his era!Top 50 player, and Rodman the best defensive player in his era!, Grant one of the best interior rebounders of the 90's,..all these players were Allstars Without Jordan on thier team!..he played with 3 allstars in a watered down league!...of course he's gonna win!

Russell - 16ppg 20rbs 6ast 8blks(they weren't counted when he played , but experts agree he had at least 8 per game)...

14 major Titles as the Star!!..in 15 years!....he did whatever it took to WIN!!!...he once played a series on a Broken ankle!!!!

Jordan - 30ppg 5reb 5ast... 6 Titles as the star in 15 years...

never!!! had a winning season without his fellow HOFamer Top 50 player teamate Pippen!!!!...when he joined the Bulls they had 3 losing seasons....when he left they were still contenders!..he has little impact on the win/loss column.....

DEFENSE wins Championships...even Jordan will tell you that!...I'll take the greatest defensive player ever (Russell)..and beat the ballhog everytime!!!!!......

2EZ!

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(F)ockers - "Tradition of winning?"..LMAO!...the Celtics never won anything before Russell joined them!....he Turned them into Championships instantly!.....it did'nt take him 7 years and a watered down league before he "learned how to make his team better"......Jordan was overrated so dumb/non basketball knowing sheep like you would buy stuff!....lol.....

get in my pocket!...you know how!..it's your "Tradition"

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Darth Flaven - relax...I don't hate MJ!....he was the best player of the 90's.......but he aint better then "the greatest winner in American sports history"...and anyways It's fun to make fun of all the MJ lovers .......

MJ HIMSELF SAID PIPPEN IS THE BEST S/FORWARD OF THE 90'S...hmmm...wonder why?.....maybe becuz he never had a winning season without him!...and he(MJ) knows that Pippen was the real!!!!...reason the Bulls were winners!!!

thanks yahoo..........MJ lovers don't know anything about Hoop!.....(laughing inside)........this is fun!!!...YAY!

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Hey "wimpy01"..it's funny how you forgot to mention that the Defensive POY award was'nt given out until Russell's last year playing!...guess who won it?...Russell did!!!!..it's fair to say if it was given out every year he played , he would have won at least 8 DPOY awards!!...It's also funny how you said Jordan was the leader of the Dream team????....huh?...he shot 42% on the dream team....the worst on the team!!!!...all he did was shoot bricks in the Olympics.....he was'nt the leader....he was the brick layer!....Bird and Magic led that team!.......and MJ's scoring titles???...who cares?..Russell has 5 more Rings then Jordan!!!!.....5 Rings...or a meaningless scoring title?....hmmm....only a Jordan lover would think scoring is important.....(sigh)....sad!...

2EZ!